Protein phosphatase 2A enhances the proapoptotic function of Bax through dephosphorylation

Bax is a major proapoptotic member of the Bcl2 family that is required for apoptotic cell death. We have recently discovered that Bax phosphorylation at serine 184 induced by nicotine through activation of protein kinase AKT abolishes its proapoptotic function in human lung cancer cells. Here we found that either treatment of cells with the protein phosphatase 2A (PP2A) inhibitor okadaic acid or specific disruption of PP2A activity by expression of SV40 small tumor antigen enhanced Bax phosphorylation, whereas C(2)-ceramide, a potent PP2A activator, reduced nicotine-induced Bax phosphorylation, suggesting that PP2A may function as a physiological Bax phosphatase. PP2A co-localized and interacted with Bax. Purified, active PP2A directly dephosphorylated Bax in vitro. Overexpression of the PP2A catalytic subunit (PP2A/C) suppressed nicotine-stimulated Bax phosphorylation in association with increased apoptotic cell death. By contrast, depletion of PP2A/C by RNA interference enhanced Bax phosphorylation and prolonged cell survival. Mechanistically C(2)-ceramide-induced Bax dephosphorylation caused a conformational change by exposure of the 6A7 epitope (amino acids 13-19) that is normally hidden at its N terminus that promoted the insertion of Bax into mitochondrial membranes and formation of Bax oligomers leading to cytochrome c release and apoptosis. In addition, PP2A directly disrupted the Bcl2/Bax association to liberate Bax from the heterodimer complex. Thus, PP2A may function as a physiological Bax regulatory phosphatase that not only dephosphorylates Bax but also activates its proapoptotic function.     

Phosphorylation and function of the hamster adrenal steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR)

In order to study the effect of phosphorylation on the function of the steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR), 10 putative phosphorylation sites were mutated in the hamster StAR. In pcDNA3.1-StAR transfected COS-1 cells, decreases in basal activity were found for the mutants S55A, S185A and S194A. Substitution of S185 by D or E to mimic phosphorylation resulted in decreased activity for all mutants; we concluded that S185 was not a phosphorylation site and we hypothesized that mutations on S185 created StAR conformational changes resulting in a decrease in its binding affinity for cholesterol. In contrast, the mutation S194D resulted in an increase in StAR activity. We have calculated the relative rate of pregnenolone formation (App. V_max) in transfected COS-1 cells with wild type (WT) and mutant StAR-pcDNA3.1 under control and (Bu)₂-cAMP stimulation. The App. V_max values refer to the rate of cholesterol transported and metabolized by the cytochrome P450scc enzyme present in the inner mitochondrial membrane. The App. V_max was 1.61 ± 0.28 for control (Ctr) WT StAR and this value was significantly increased to 4.72 ± 0.09 for (Bu)₂-cAMP stimulated preparations. App. V_max of 5.53 (Ctr) and 4.82 ((Bu)₂-cAMP) found for S194D StAR preparations were similar to that of the WT StAR stimulated preparations. At equal StAR quantity, an anti-phospho-(S/T) PKA substrate antibody revealed four times more phospho-(S/T) in (Bu)₂-cAMP than in control preparations. The intensity of phosphorylated bands was decreased for the S55A, S56A and S194A mutants and it was completely abolished for the S55A/S56A/S194A mutant. StAR activity of control and stimulated preparations were diminished by 73 and 72% for the mutant S194A compared to 77 and 83% for the mutant S55A/S56A/S194A. The remaining activity appears to be independent of phosphorylation at PKA sites and could be due to the intrinsic activity of non-phosphorylated StAR or to an artefact due to the pharmacological quantity of StAR expressed in COS-1. In conclusion we have shown that (Bu)₂-cAMP provokes an augmentation of both the quantity and activity of StAR, and that an enhancement in StAR phosphorylation increases its activity. The increased quantity of StAR upon (Bu)₂-cAMP stimulation could be due to an augmentation of its mRNA or protein synthesis stability, or both; this is yet to be determined.     

Phosphomimicking mutations of human 14-3-3ζ affect its interaction with tau protein and small heat shock protein HspB6

Effect of phosphomimicking mutations of 14-3-3ζ on its interaction with phosphorylated shortest isoform of human tau protein and phosphorylated human small heat shock protein HspB6 (Hsp20) was analyzed. Chemical crosslinking and native gel electrophoresis indicate that mutations S184E and T232E weakly affect interaction of 14-3-3 with phosphorylated tau protein, whereas mutations S58E and S58E/S184E/T232E significantly impair interaction of 14-3-3 and tau. Size-exclusion chromatography, chemical crosslinking and immunoprecipitation revealed that phosphomimicking mutations S58E and S58E/S184E/T232E strongly decrease, mutation T232E weakly affects and mutation S184E improves interaction of 14-3-3 with phosphorylated HspB6. Thus, mutation mimicking phosphorylation of Ser58 dramatically decreases interaction of 14-3-3 with two target proteins and this effect might be due to destabilization of the dimeric structure of 14-3-3 and/or conformational changes of the target-binding site. The mutation mimicking phosphorylation of Thr232 weakly affects interaction of 14-3-3 with both proteins. The mutation mimicking phosphorylation of Ser184 does not markedly affect interaction with tau protein and improves the interaction of 14-3-3 with HspB6. Thus, effect of 14-3-3 phosphorylation depends on the nature of the target protein and therefore, phosphorylation of 14-3-3 might affect its target specificity.     

Targeting Bax interaction sites reveals that only homo-oligomerization sites are essential for its activation

Bax is a proapoptotic Bcl-2 family member that has a central role in the initiation of mitochondria-dependent apoptosis. However, the mechanism of Bax activation during apoptosis remains unsettled. It is believed that the activation of Bax is mediated by either dissociation from prosurvival Bcl-2 family members, or direct association with BH3-only members. Several interaction sites on Bax that mediate its interactions with other Bcl-2 family members, as well as its proapoptotic activity, have been identified in previous studies by other groups. To rigorously investigate the functional role of these interaction sites, we knocked in their respective mutants using HCT116 colon cancer cells, in which apoptosis induced by several stimuli is strictly Bax-dependent. Bax-mediated apoptosis was intact upon knock-in (KI) of K21E and D33A, which were shown to block the interaction of Bax with BH3-only activators. Apoptosis was partially reduced by KI of D68R, which impairs the interaction of Bax with prosurvival members, and S184V, a constitutively mitochondria-targeting mutant. In contrast, apoptosis was largely suppressed by KI of L70A/D71A, which blocks homo-oligomerization of Bax and its binding to prosurvival Bcl-2 family proteins. Collectively, our results suggest that the activation of endogenous Bax in HCT116 cells is dependent on its homo-oligomerization sites, but not those previously shown to interact with BH3-only activators or prosurvival proteins only. We therefore postulate that critical interaction sites yet to be identified, or mechanisms other than protein-protein interactions, need to be pursued to delineate the mechanism of Bax activation during apoptosis.     

Nicotine inactivation of the proapoptotic function of Bax through phosphorylation

Nicotine-induced cell survival is associated with chemoresistance of human lung cancer cells, but our understanding of the intracellular mechanism(s) is fragmentary. Bax is a major proapoptotic member of the Bcl2 family and a molecule required for apoptotic cell death. Growth factor (i.e. granulocyte-macrophage colony-stimulating factor)-induced phosphorylation of Bax has been reported to negatively regulate its proapoptotic function. Because Bax is ubiquitously expressed in both small cell lung cancer and non-small cell lung cancer cells, nicotine may mimic growth factor(s) to regulate the activity of Bax. We found that nicotine potently induces Bax phosphorylation at Ser-184, which results in abrogation of the proapoptotic activity of Bax and increased cell survival. AKT, a known physiological Bax kinase, is activated by nicotine, co-localizes with Bax in the cytoplasm, and can directly phosphorylate Bax in vitro. Treatment of cells with the phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K) inhibitor LY294002 or specific depletion of AKT expression by RNA interference can block both nicotine-induced Bax phosphorylation and cell survival. Importantly, nicotine-induced Bax phosphorylation potently blocks stress-induced translocation of Bax from cytosol to mitochondria, impairs Bax insertion into mitochondrial membranes, and reduces the half-life of Bax protein (i.e. from 9-12 h to <6 h). Because knockdown of Bax expression by gene silencing results in prolonged cell survival following treatment with cisplatin in the absence or presence of nicotine, Bax may be an essential component in the nicotine survival signaling pathway. Thus, nicotine-induced survival and chemoresistance of human lung cancer cells may occur in a novel mechanism involving activation of PI3K/AKT that directly phosphorylates and inactivates the proapoptotic function of Bax.     

Site-directed mutagenesis of serine 158 demonstrates its role in spinach leaf sucrose-phosphate synthase modulation

Site-directed mutagenesis of spinach sucrose-phosphate synthase (SPS) was performed to investigate the role of Ser158 in the modulation of spinach leaf SPS. Tobacco plants expressing the spinach wild-type (WT), S158A, S158T and S157F/S158E SPS transgenes were produced. Expression of transgenes appeared not to reduce expression of the tobacco host SPS. SPS activity in the WT and the S158T SPS transgenics showed light/dark modulation, whereas the S158A and S157F/S158E mutants were not similarly light/dark modulated: the S158A mutant enzyme was not inactivated in the dark, and the S157F/S158E was not activated in the light. The inability to modulate the activity of the S158A mutant enzyme by protein phosphorylation was demonstrated in vitro. The WT spinach enzyme immunopurified from dark transgenic tobacco leaves had a low initial activation state, and could be activated by PP2A and subsequently inactivated by SPS-kinase plus ATP. Rapid purification of the S158A mutant enzyme from dark leaves of transgenic plants using spinach-specific monoclonal antibodies yielded enzyme that had a high initial activation state, and pre-incubation with leaf PP2A or ATP plus SPS-kinase (the PKIII enzyme) caused little modulation of activity. The results demonstrate the regulatory significance of Ser158 as the major site responsible for dark inactivation of spinach SPS in vivo, and indicate that the significance of phosphorylation is the introduction of a negative charge at the Ser158 position.     

Serine 64 phosphorylation enhances the antiapoptotic function of Mcl-1

Mcl-1 is an antiapoptotic Bcl-2 family member that is highly regulated and when dysregulated contributes to cancer. The Mcl-1 protein is phosphorylated at multiple sites in response to different signaling events. Phosphorylations at Thr163 (by ERK) and Ser159 (by glycogen-synthase kinase 3beta) have recently been shown to slow and enhance, respectively, Mcl-1 protein turnover. Phosphorylation is also known to be stimulated at other, as-yet uncharacterized sites in the G2/M phase of the cell cycle. Using an S peptide-tagged Mcl-1 T163A mutant, Ser64 was identified as a novel Mcl-1 phosphorylation site by mass spectrometry. Immunoblotting demonstrated that phosphorylation at this site was maximal in cells in G2/M phase, was enhanced by tumor necrosis factor-alpha-related apoptosis-inducing ligand (TRAIL) treatment, was blocked by inhibitors of CDK (but not ERK or glycogen-synthase kinase 3beta), and was stimulated in vitro by CDK 1, CDK2, and JNK1. The half-life of a nonphosphorylatable S64A Mcl-1 mutant was indistinguishable from that of the wild type polypeptide. In contrast, this mutant failed to protect cells from TRAIL-mediated apoptosis, whereas reconstitution with the phosphomimetic S64E Mcl-1 mutant rendered cells TRAIL-resistant. This anti-apoptotic phenotype of the S64E Mcl-1 mutant was also associated with enhanced binding to the proapoptotic proteins Bim, Noxa, and Bak. A pharmacological CDK inhibitor that reduced Ser64 phosphorylation also sensitized cells to TRAIL cytotoxicity. Collectively, these observations not only identify G2/M-associated phosphorylation at Ser64 as a critical determinant of the antiapoptotic activity of Mcl-1 but also elucidate a novel mechanism by which CDK1/2 inhibitors can enhance the effectiveness of the cytotoxic cytokine TRAIL.     

Phosphorylation of serine 43 is not required for inhibition of c-Raf kinase by the cAMP-dependent protein kinase

The activity of the serine/threonine kinase c-Raf (Raf) is inhibited by increased intracellular cAMP. This is believed to require phosphorylation with the cAMP-dependent protein kinase (PKA), although the mechanism by which PKA inhibits Raf is controversial. We investigated the requirement for PKA phosphorylation using Raf mutants expressed in HEK293 or NIH 3T3 cells. Phosphopeptide mapping of (32)P-labeled Raf (WT) or a mutant lacking a putative PKA phosphorylation site (serine to alanine, S43A) confirmed that serine 43 (Ser(43)) was the major cAMP (forskolin)-stimulated phosphorylation site in vivo. Interestingly, the EGF-stimulated Raf kinase activity of the S43A mutant was inhibited by forskolin equivalently to that of the WT Raf. Forskolin also inhibited the activation of an N-terminal deletion mutant Delta5-50 Raf completely lacking this phosphorylation site. Although WT Raf was phosphorylated by PKA, phosphorylation did not inhibit Raf catalytic activity in vitro, nor did forskolin treatment inhibit the activity of an N-terminally truncated Raf protein (Raf 22W) or a full-length Raf protein (Raf-CAAX) expressed in NIH 3T3 cells. In contrast, forskolin inhibited the EGF-dependent activation of a Raf isoform (B-Raf), lacking an analogous phosphorylation site to Ser(43). Thus, these results demonstrate that PKA exerts its inhibitory effects independently of direct Raf phosphorylation and suggests instead that PKA prevents an event required for the EGF-dependent activation of Raf.     

TTF-1相关蛋白26磷酸化位点突变体的构建

目的制备TTF-1相关蛋白26（TAP26）的3个磷酸化位点（S48,S66和T219）的突变体（TAP26（S48→A48）、TAP26（S66→A66）和TAP26（T219→V219））。方法采用定点诱变PCR技术,分别突变掉TAP26的3个磷酸化位点（S48,S66和T219）,并获得TAP26的3个相应突变体。结果DNA序列分析结果显示TAP26的3个突变体序列正确。结论通过定点诱变PCR技术,成功构建了TAP26的3个突变体。     

Phosphorylation at S384 regulates the activity of the TaALMT1 malate transporter that underlies aluminum resistance in wheat

In this study we examined the role of protein phosphorylation/dephosphorylation in the transport properties of the wheat ( Triticum aestivum ) root malate efflux transporter underlying Al resistance, TaALMT1. Pre-incubation of Xenopus laevis oocytes expressing TaALMT1 with protein kinase inhibitors (K252a and staurosporine) strongly inhibited both basal and Al³⁺-enhanced TaALMT1-mediated inward currents (malate efflux). Pre-incubation with phosphatase inhibitors (okadaic acid and cyclosporine A) resulted in a modest inhibition of the TaALMT1-mediated currents. Exposure to the protein kinase C (PKC) activator, phorbol 12-myristate 13-acetate (PMA), enhanced TaALMT1-mediated inward currents. Since these observations suggest that TaALMT1 transport activity is regulated by PKC-mediated phosphorylation, we proceeded to modify candidate amino acids in the TaALMT1 protein in an effort to identify structural motifs underlying the process regulating phosphorylation. The transport properties of eight single point mutations (S56A, S183A, S324A, S337A, S351-352A, S384A, T323A and Y184F) generated in amino acid residues predicted to be phosphorylation sites and examined electrophysiologically. The basic transport properties of mutants S56A, S183A, S324A, S337A, S351-352A, T323A and Y184F were not altered relative to the wild-type TaALMT1. Likewise the sensitivity of these mutants to staurosporine resembled that observed for the wild-type transporter. However, the mutation S384A was noticeable, as in oocytes expressing this mutant protein TaALMT1-mediated basal and Al-enhanced currents were significantly inhibited, and the currents were insensitive to staurosporine or PMA. These findings indicate that S384 is an essential residue regulating TaALMT1 activity via direct protein phosphorylation, which precedes Al³⁺ enhancement of transport activity.     

Regulation of the Ste20-like kinase, SLK: involvement of activation segment phosphorylation

Expression and activation of the Ste20-like kinase, SLK, is increased during kidney development and recovery from ischemic acute kidney injury. SLK promotes apoptosis, and it may regulate cell survival during injury or repair. This study addresses the role of phosphorylation in the regulation of kinase activity. We mutated serine and threonine residues in the putative activation segment of the SLK catalytic domain and expressed wild type (WT) and mutant proteins in COS-1 or glomerular epithelial cells. Compared with SLK WT, the T183A, S189A, and T183A/S189A mutants showed reduced in vitro kinase activity. SLK WT, but not mutants, increased activation-specific phosphorylation of c-Jun N-terminal kinase (JNK) and p38 kinase. Similarly, SLK WT stimulated activator protein-1 reporter activity, but activation of activator protein-1 by the three SLK mutants was ineffective. To test if homodimerization of SLK affects phosphorylation, the cDNA encoding SLK amino acids 1-373 (which include the catalytic domain) was fused with a cDNA for a modified FK506-binding protein, Fv (Fv-SLK 1-373). After transfection, the addition of AP20187 (an FK506 analog) induced regulated dimerization of Fv-SLK 1-373. AP20187-stimulated dimerization enhanced the kinase activity of Fv-SLK 1-373 WT. In contrast, kinase activity of Fv-SLK 1-373 T183A/S189A was weak and was not enhanced after dimerization. Finally, apoptosis was increased after expression of Fv-SLK 1-373 WT but not T183A/S189A. Thus, phosphorylation of Thr-183 and Ser-189 plays a key role in the activation and signaling of SLK and could represent a target for novel therapeutic approaches to renal injury.     

Phosphorylation of threonine 497 in endothelial nitric-oxide synthase coordinates the coupling of L-arginine metabolism to efficient nitric oxide production

There is evidence that endothelial nitric-oxide synthase (eNOS) is regulated by reciprocal dephosphorylation of Thr497 and phosphorylation of Ser1179. To examine the interrelationship between these sites, cells were transfected with wild-type (WT), T497A, T497D, S1179D, and T497A/S1179D eNOS and activity, NO release and eNOS localization were assessed. Although eNOS T497A, S1179D and T497A/S1179D eNOS had greater enzymatic activity than did WT eNOS in lysates, basal production of NO from cells was markedly reduced in cells transfected with T497A and T497A/S1179D eNOS but augmented in cells transfected with S1179D eNOS. Stimulating cells with ATP or ionophore normalized the loss of function seen with T497A and T497A/S1179D eNOS to levels observed with WT and S1179D eNOS, respectively. Despite these functional differences, the localization of eNOS mutants were similar to WT. Because both T497A and T497A/S1179D eNOS exhibited higher enzyme activity but reduced production of NO, we examined whether these mutations were "uncoupling" NO synthesis. T497A and T497A/S1179D eNOS generated 2-3 times more superoxide anion than WT eNOS, and both basal and stimulated interactions of T497A/S1179D eNOS with hsp90 were reduced in co-immunoprecipitation experiments. Thus, the phosphorylation/dephosphorylation of Thr497 may be an intrinsic switch mechanism that determines whether eNOS generates NO versus superoxide in cells.     

Mutational analysis of the active site of indoleglycerol phosphate synthase from Escherichia coli.

Indoleglycerol phosphate synthase catalyzes the ring closure of 1-(2-carboxyphenylamino)-1-deoxyribulose 5''-phosphate to indoleglycerol phosphate, the fifth step in the pathway of tryptophan biosynthesis from chorismate. Because chemical synthesis of indole derivatives from arylamino ketones requires drastic solvent conditions, it is interesting by what mechanism the enzyme catalyzes the same condensation reaction. Seven invariant polar residues in the active site of the enzyme from Escherichia coli have been mutated directly or randomly, to identify the catalytically essential ones. A strain of E. coli suitable for selecting and classifying active mutants by functional complementation was constructed by precise deletion of the trpC gene from the genome. Judged by growth rates of transformants on selective media, mutants with either S58 or S60 replaced by alanine were indistinguishable from the wild-type, but R186 replaced by alanine was still partially active. Saturation random mutagenesis of individual codons showed that E53 was partially replaceable by aspartate and cysteine, whereas K114, E163, and N184 could not be replaced by any other residue. Partially active mutant proteins were purified and their steady-state kinetic and inhibitor binding constants determined. Their relative catalytic efficiencies paralleled their relative complementation efficiencies. These results are compatible with the location of the essential residues in the active site of the enzyme and support a chemically plausible catalytic mechanism. It involves two enzyme-bound intermediates and general acid-base catalysis by K114 and E163 with the support of E53 and N184.     

ROS-dependent phosphorylation of Bax by wortmannin sensitizes melanoma cells for TRAIL-induced apoptosis

The pathways of reactive oxygen species (ROS)-mediated apoptosis induction, of Bax activation and the sensitization of tumor cells for TRAIL (TNF-related apoptosis-inducing ligand)-induced apoptosis are still largely elusive. Here, sensitization of melanoma cells for TRAIL by the PI3-kinase inhibitor wortmannin correlated to the activation of mitochondrial apoptosis pathways. Apoptosis was dependent on Bax and abrogated by Bcl-2 overexpression. The synergistic enhancement was explained by Bax activation through wortmannin, which tightly correlated to the characteristic Bax phosphorylation patterns. Thus, wortmannin resulted in early reduction of the Bax-inactivating phosphorylation at serine-184, whereas the Bax-activating phosphorylation at threonine-167 was enhanced. Proving the responsibility of the pathway, comparable effects were obtained with an Akt inhibitor (MK-2206); while suppressed phosphorylation of serine-184 may be attributed to reduced Akt activity itself, the causes of enhanced threonine-167 phosphorylation were addressed here. Characteristically, production of ROS was seen early in response to wortmannin and MK-2206. Providing the link between ROS and Bax, we show that abrogated ROS production by α-tocopherol or by NADPH oxidase 4 (NOX4) siRNA suppressed apoptosis and Bax activation. This correlated with reduced Bax phosphorylation at threonine-167. The data unraveled a mechanism by which NOX4-dependent ROS production controls apoptosis via Bax phosphorylation. The pathway may be considered for proapoptotic, anticancer strategies.     

Substitutions of potentially phosphorylatable serine residues of Bax reveal how they may regulate its interaction with mitochondria

During apoptosis, the pro-apoptotic protein Bax relocalizes from the cytosol to the mitochondrial outer membrane. This relocalization is associated to major conformational changes, namely at the N- and C-terminal ends of the protein. Substitution of residues located at critical positions within the protein potentially stimulates or inhibits this process. In the present study, we investigated the hypothesis that phosphorylation of serine residues might trigger these conformational changes, with a focus on Ser(163) and Ser(184), which have been shown to be phosphorylatable by protein kinases GSK3beta and Akt/PKB, respectively, and on Ser(60), which is located in a consensus target sequence for PKA. Substitutions of these serine residues by alanine or aspartate were done in wild type or previously characterized Bax mutants, and the capacity of the resulting proteins to interact with mitochondria and to release cytochrome c was assayed in yeast, which provides a tool to study the function of Bax, independently of the rest of the apoptotic network. We conclude that sequential phosphorylation of these serine residues might participate in the triggering of the different conformational changes associated with Bax activation during apoptosis.     

A functional screen provides evidence for a conserved, regulatory, juxtamembrane phosphorylation site in guanylyl cyclase a and B

Kinase homology domain (KHD) phosphorylation is required for activation of guanylyl cyclase (GC)-A and -B. Phosphopeptide mapping identified multiple phosphorylation sites in GC-A and GC-B, but these approaches have difficulty identifying sites in poorly detected peptides. Here, a functional screen was conducted to identify novel sites. Conserved serines or threonines in the KHDs of phosphorylated receptor GCs were mutated to alanine and tested for reduced hormone to detergent activity ratios. Mutation of Ser-489 in GC-B to alanine but not glutamate reduced the activity ratio to 60% of wild type (WT) levels. Similar results were observed with Ser-473, the homologous site in GC-A. Receptors containing glutamates for previously identified phosphorylation sites (GC-A-6E and GC-B-6E) were activated to ~20% of WT levels but the additional glutamate substitution for S473 or S489 increased activity to near WT levels. Substrate-velocity assays indicated that GC-B-WT-S489E and GC-B-6E-S489E had lower Km values and that WT-GC-B-S489A, GC-B-6E and GC-B-6E-S489A had higher Km values than WT-GC-B. Homologous desensitization was enhanced when GC-A contained the S473E substitution, and GC-B-6E-S489E was resistant to inhibition by a calcium elevating treatment or protein kinase C activation--processes that dephosphorylate GC-B. Mass spectrometric detection of a synthetic phospho-Ser-473 containing peptide was 200-1300-fold less sensitive than other phosphorylated peptides and neither mass spectrometric nor (32)PO(4) co-migration studies detected phospho-Ser-473 or phospho-Ser-489 in cells. We conclude that Ser-473 and Ser-489 are Km-regulating phosphorylation sites that are difficult to detect using current methods.